Lived Experience Forum

[HenryX]

Hello @chibam and others following the development of this important topic

It seems such a pity to me that we so often, in debate and development of a topic of discussion, feel the need to tear apart the original message of the article and the style in which it is presented.

Why can we not address the issues and discuss those, rather than "killing the messenger", the horse on which they rode and possibly even, eventually, destroying the message that was intended to be conveyed in the first place.

We can  offer our observations, countering an arguement in a debate, without attacking both the mesenger and the message.

Concerned,

@HenryX 

[chibam]

---

@HenryX wrote:

Hello @chibam and others following the development of this important topic

It seems such a pity to me that we so often, in debate and development of a topic of discussion, feel the need to tear apart the original message of the article and the style in which it is presented.

Why can we not address the issues and discuss those, rather than "killinng the messenger", the horse on which they rode and possibly even, eventually, destroying the message that was intended to be conveyed in the first place.

We can  offer our observations, countering an arguement in a debate, without attacking both the mesenger and the message.

Concerned,

@HenryX 

---

Fair points, @HenryX .

I suppose, in my case at least, it comes down to a mix of the old, school debate club mindset of clarifying the oppositions dubious claims before you dismantle them; and ongoing bitterness about the assumptions people make about you when they read things like this and think that they understand you and your plight.

A lot of this stuff sounded eerily familiar; not so much in that it described me, but that it described attitudes that had been pointed towards me. When that builds up over the course of decades, fairly or unfairly, it leaves you with an axe to grind.

We live in a world where the passes just don't understand suicidalness; and where a significant portion of the suicidal community have been so thoroughly shamed for their viewpoints, they've come to genuinely believe that their attitudes are mental defects in need of correction or suppression; much like the domestic abuse victim who comes to genuinely believe that she deserves to be 'disciplined' for her inadequacies.

So, as a suicidal person, it's a real uphill battle trying to get the world to understand your viewpoint. And, I have to say, that articles such as the one we're discussing, feel like an extra hurdle to surmount.

But maybe your right. Maybe I'm so self-centered about my own plight, I've been unfairly undermining someone else, who has merely used their fair right to air their own opinion on the subject. I don't want to do that. I don't want to get into a situation where it feels like my point of view is the only one that matters.

I'm just sick and tired of living in a world that I don't get, and that doesn't get me. And that article proved to be an unpleasant reminder of how bad things are.

[HenryX]

Hello @chibam 

I appreciate your response and particularly relate to your comments regarding a range of varied opinions.

It is, I believe, the consideration given to the opinion, statement or perspective of another, or others, that allows us to view our own position or perspctives from different points of view. Hence my concern about possible destruction of the "messenger, the horse and possibly the message itself". The message having been either destroyed or besmirched in such a way as to deny that it may be useful or even, in the least, still worthy of inclusion among the views being considered.

With Best Wishes

@HenryX 

[chibam]

@HenryX, whichever way you cut it - whether the fault is my own, or someone else's, there is still a breakdown of communication. I read that article, I recognize that the author has a differant point of view to my own, but I still cannot for the life of me understand it.

I feel none the wiser as to "the other side's" stance, and that therefore, no progress has been made. Which makes it very difficult to honestly acknowledge that "the message may be useful."

Still maybe, beyond the scope of my understanding, it may serve to enlighten others as to the author's point of view, which I guess, is all the author could intend or hope for in the first place.

I guess that all the rest of us can hope for is that readers will not confuse the author with ourselves, and recognize that whatever insight the author has given them into his own mindset, they are still none the wiser in terms of understanding our plights.

Unfortunately, in our society that so deeply yearns for "one-size-fits-all" explainations to all the things we don't understand, I fear that too many people will be inclined to box us all up together, under a single alien mindset.

[Historylover]

Hello @chibam – it's been a while since we last chatted so I just wanted to check in to see if all is well with you. I hope you have been doing well. I've been plodding on and trying to keep out of trouble.😊

[chibam]

Hi @Historylover !

Yes, long time no chat! I'd been wondering about you myself, but, if I recall, the last time we spoke, you were very busy with your studies. I didn't want to disturb you again unnecessarily, so I thought I'd leave it a bit longer, to see if we crossed paths again on the forums, before I sent you a check-in message.

You beat me to the punch.

Things have been a bit trying for me lately, but I'm hoping that that's run it's course by now. Of course, Xmas is right around the corner, so that brings all it's own issues. I really need to get my Xmas shopping done, especially considdering how everyone keeps saying that coronavirus has disrupted all the supply chains and deliveries are going to take much longer this year then they would in an ordinary Xmas.

Unfortunately, I happen to be a master procrastinator.

[Historylover]

Always good to check in with you @chibam, 😊. Sorry things have been a little trying for you of late – same here. You'd never disturb me, regardless of what I'm doing or not doing. It's just always good to catch up.

I have been looking in on the forum but there hasn't been a lot for me to respond to, and you seemed to be keeping a low profile too. It's always good to have other avenues to keep us occupied, although there isn't much variety in my life. Always a good sign when we are not making an SOS post ourselves anyway! You rarely seem to, so you must have stronger ability to cope than me. I hope so anyway.

Yes, xmas is just around the corner and the silly season will begin again. I hope you have some folks to share it with. 😊

[chibam]

---

@Historylover wrote:

I have been looking in on the forum but there hasn't been a lot for me to respond to, and you seemed to be keeping a low profile too.

---

Not so much keeping a low profile as being tied up with other stuff. And I guess I've been trying to cut out a bit of time for myself, too.

---

@Historylover wrote:

Always a good sign when we are not making an SOS post ourselves anyway! You rarely seem to...

---

To be honest, I have this nasty habit of hijacking other peoples' threads and over-venting my own grievances and concerns in threads that really ought to be about the original poster.

I often have the urge to start a topic about some subject that's been troubling me; but the urges usally seem to strike when, for one reason or another, I can't immediately sit down at a computer and log in to SANE to start posting. By the time I am able to make a post, the urge has waned.

Consequently, I end up with a lot of instances where someone else on here will say something that triggers me to start ranting, and I tend to lose control until after I've posted a chunky slab to text that seems to hijack the original focus/purpose of the thread.

---

@Historylover wrote:
..so you must have stronger ability to cope than me. I hope so anyway.

---

'Cope'/'coping' and 'resiliance'/'resiliant' are words that I have struggled with very heavily over the past 12 months or so.

What does "cope" mean?

I mean, think about it in terms of someone suffering a physical distress - say, kidney stones.

When a person can "cope" with their kidney stones, does that mean that their stones are unusually small, ergo not patricularly painful, and they don't really need much assistance or care?

Or does it mean that they have dull nerves? And even though they have large kidney stones that would have any other person howling in agony, they don't particularly feel troubled by it, even though they are enduring a serious crisis?

Or does it mean that they are able to suppress their urge to scream, so that they don't disturb or inconvienience anybody, even though they are writhing in horrendous agony?

What does "cope" mean?

As far as the wider world is concerned, I think they believe that I am very good at "coping". Though in truth, my life has mostly been like the third scenario in that list above then anything else.

I hate my life. I just never scream, because what's the point?

Maybe that is what "coping" is.

I remember, when things first went bad, seeing letters my dad was writing to various people that mentioned me, saying: "he seems quite happy"... all that at a time when I was miserable and really needed people to help me. But nobody's ever interested in helping when your "okay", let alone "apparently happy".

Maybe that's my biggest fault: I'm too good at "coping"; too good at not making a fuss. Maybe if I was one of these guys who has a record of a half-dozen failed suicide attempts, help would've come by now.

Or, at the very least, maybe I would've called it quits and spared myself all the senseless grief I've endured. Either way, the results would have to be better then what I've actually gotten.

Sorry. I'm not delivering any definitive conclusions with any of this. As I say, I've been wrestling frequently with these concepts for much of this past year.

At the very least, I've developed something of a resentment for the concepts of "coping" and "resiliance". Too few of the world fail to respect that they are nothing more then stopgap solutions, at best. They seem to percieve them as permanent solutions to indefinite, unreasonable despair. From personal experiance, I know that it's rather unfortunate being on the recieving end of that philosophy.

[HenryX]

Hello @The-Hams , who initiated this thread , @chibam , and @Historylover , both of whom have contributed significantly to the thread and

with an invitation to the following members to read into the discussion and contribute if they wish.

@Ant7 , @Eve7 , @NatureLover , @Meowmy , @Anastasia , @BlueBay , @Emelia8 , @Mumi @Appleblossom , @1stepup61 , @Clawde, @Snowie , @Bow , @WIP , @Sophia1 , @Faith-and-Hope , @periwinklepixie , @Itsjustme1 , @Daisydreamer , @flybluebird , @Shaz51 , @Judi9877 , @TAB , @BPDSurvivor , @wellwellwellnez , @oceangirl , @Smiling_Gecko , @Appleblossom , @Rhye

{Moderately long post ~1260words}

Caution Please:

There are sensitive issues discussed in the article, to which this thread initially refers and some of the comments and discussions that follow.

If you see a red light for yourself, please be cautious.

Timing of Topics and Responses.

@chibam , Your comment regarding having thoughts about starting a topic, when not being near a computer at the time, and by the time that you are, the urge having waned, is likely to be similar for many of us. For me, what I write, is often a response to what others have written, though, like you, sometimes topics and responses occur to me at times other than when I am near my computer. The couple of threads that I have started have also been in response to a question or suggestion of another member. I am pleased to have corresponded with other members in ways that have been interactive, responsive and engaging. That engagement, with other members, has been useful to me, in ways that I hope have been mutually beneficial. And, I hope that what I have contributed, may also have been useful for others.

Caution in Preparation of Material

Much of what I write is prepared in a word processor such as “Microsoft Word” or, in my case, “Apache OpenOffice Writer”. This gives me the opportunity to review and edit my work before I transfer it to the Reply box on the forum. It also gives me the opportunity to check any “rants” before they “go to print”. I am gradually learning, after ten months of forum activity, to respond only to the posts of others, if I have what I believe is a reasonable contribution to offer to those who post comments and others reading in the threads. It also gives me time to cool off, if the topic is one that generates heat in the response. Writing the response first in a word processor, gives me the opportunity to exercise a reasonable level of control over my own contributions, before I post to the thread. There are times when I believe that I cannot contribute what I have written without inflaming and generating too much negativity, or what I have written is so far down a different path, that it does not directly or appropriately address the topic. I then simply discard what I have written, or, if I think it worthwhile, save it for consideration when posting to a more relevant and connected topic and thread.

Variations in Interpreting the Written Word

The way I see the written word is that it conveys ideas. But it is also malleable. The meaning of words, such as cope and resilience, are not so fixed that we cannot use them in any way that is not open for some degree of interpretation. Consequently, while I am reasonably careful that the meaning of what I write is clear, I do not think that I write in such a way as to be totally inflexible in meaning and unable to have what I offer, be interpreted in different ways. As such, I expect that what I write may be open to challenge in terms of meaning or intent, open to other interpretations, and is, therefore, non-prescriptive.

Range of Meaning in Language

I believe that we can define the meanings of words in such a way as to make them meaningless, in any but a single sense. We could then, of course, dispense with the use of metaphors, similes, analogies, and all other creative, poetic and imaginative and interesting uses of our language. This type of application would, I think, make our use of language, colourless, dull and boring.

Being True to Self and Circumstances

I acknowledge, and in some ways, align and identify myself with your situation, whereby, what is apparent externally is not necessarily what exists on the inside, psychologically, mentally or physically. However, if we wish to scream and we feel that it would be an appropriate expression of our existence, and yet we do not, then the only person to whom we are being untrue is ourselves. I do not believe that we can explain that situation away by some convoluted or contrived determination of the meaning of words. If we are “too good at coping”, what we may really be saying is that we are too good at duping others with regard to the expression of our own real needs and experience of life. Neither, I believe, can we, by comparison with the situation of others, justify the conscious actions and self-presentation of our own responses to our situations or positions in life.

Selecting Appropriate Times and Resources of Assistance

While what I have said above might seem fairly strong, I do believe that there are places and times for everything. We may, in various situations and for a variety of reasons, see it as appropriate to make a conscious decision to act, or not to act, in a particular way and circumstance that may be inconsistent with our internal reality. However, if we need assistance, and make a conscious decision to not seek such assistance, then we are responsible for the outcomes that may be generated as a result of our own independent and conscious decisions.

Self-Disclosure and Timing

In this forum, I have, after a period of ten months activity on the forum, described in brief detail, some of my personal circumstances. While I have referred, previously, to my having sought the assistance of a counsellor, I have, up till now, said little about what the reasons for seeking such assistance may have been. That was my conscious decision, and I cannot apportion or attribute the reasons, consequences, or blame, if such were warranted, for that course of action to anyone other than myself. I felt as though I was ready for that self-disclosure and that I was safe enough to do so. Consequently, the decisions and the consequences of those decisions are mine and mine alone.

Accessing and Use of Resources

Recently, I was introduced to the concepts of what are referred to as “Stuck Points”. The reasons for their existence and the resulting consequences of their existence in my life, was initially, somewhat difficult to 'get my head around'. In coming to understand their existence and affects, I have come to a better understanding of the barriers to my progress and movement in life. I have said that I want my remaining time to be spent in as pleasant, constructive and productive ways as possible. That is the main reason for my having sought the assistance of a counsellor. Not for that person to “fix me up” but for that person to accompany me on the journey and, in so doing, pass on to me methods, practices and increased awareness, that will enable me to use those structures to make the best of what remains of my existence as a person.

With My Very Best Wishes

@HenryX

[chibam]

@HenryX  To be completely honest, my "lack of screaming" really comes down to practical concerns more then anything else. If I'm being honest, I know that screaming would not accomplish anything positive, so that's why I don't do it.

But I guess it's nice to live in the daydream of half-believing that, if I were to scream loudly enough, help would come. To con myself into believing that the world does have a fair amount of goodness in it; the reasons for my own plight must be largely down to my silence. Because when you throw that delusion away, you have to see the true ugliness of the world you have to live in.

And then, once again we run into practicality concerns. Is there any practical merit to dispensing with the delusion, seeing as the end result is the same anyway? I'f I'm to be trapped here either way, am I not better off curling up into a delusion that makes me a little more comfortable?

I strike this question frequently when I look back at my time in therapy. In real terms, my life was terrible before I entered therapy, it was (more or less) identically terrible when I was let go from therapy. The only thing that changed was that I had lost my delusions that there was a better life waiting for me somewhere else.

Am I worse off for having lost those delusions? I think so. I think I suffer harder because I have to live without much hope.